Trey Goff: Establishment Tree Should Be Cut Down

MCD contributor Trey Goff had an excellent Facebook post today, which is very much worth reading.  It is further proof of why true conservatives don’t trust the current makeup of the Republican Party, and fits in nicely with the Walters piece!

A solid majority of my Republican friends are consistently advocating that we Mississippians vote for Thad Cochran in November. Their primary support for this position is that we desperately need to obtain a Republican majority in the Senate, and that Cochran will be chairman of the Appropriations committee. However, that doesn’t sway me at all. Why should I support a Republican majority in the Senate? Let’s look what happened the last time we had not only a majority Republican Congress, but a Republican president as well (2000-2008):

-The federal debt grew from $5.9 trillion to $10.7 trillion

-The federal regulatory body that crushes business and the free market grew immensely. From 2001-2008, the federal government imposed almost $30 billion in new regulatory costs on Americans. About $11 billion was imposed in fiscal year (FY) 2007 alone.

-billions of dollars and thousands of great American lives were lost in the Middle East and Iraq for naught

-Civil liberties were consistently eviscerated, especially by the PATRIOT Act and the NDAA

-Government grew in every direction and in nearly every sense imaginable

That isn’t something I can support. From 2000-2008, the Republican party did the same things the Democratic party is now, just at a very slightly slower pace. The main difference between the two parties is no longer big government vs. small government; no longer free markets vs. interventionism; no longer liberty vs. statism. It is no longer whether or not we should spend the taxpayer’s money; it is what and whom we should spend it on. 

Thad Cochran was witness to and complaint with this immense growth in government. Were he chairman of the Appropriations Committee, we would see yet more capital and growth-repressing tax dollars poured into the Mississippi economy. We can nearly guarantee our spot near the bottom of every economic indicator to stay well occupied by our state. 

I will not vote for that, nor will I hold my nose and vote for it under the false premise that a Republican Congress will somehow shrink government and return free market policies. The two major parties are merely two branches of the same tree. 

That tree needs to be cut down.

Well said Trey! – MCD

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Comments

  1. So, if I understand Mr.Goff’s post correctly, he won’t vote for Cochran because the GOP is just as complicit in the growth of the welfare state as the other party, so a plague on both their houses… Is that accurate? I think it is, within reasonable limits. My question is this: what would you have us do?

    I think it is unrealistic and just plain silly to think that all the McDaniels supporters will stay home or vote for Childers in November. Sure, there will be some who do so; but, the greater majority will pull a lever for Cochran come election day. I won’t go into the obvious (to me) sense of this. I will, however, make two points.

    1. Senator Cochran will hopefully be part of a new Republican majority in the US Senate. While he decries the what has happened to the power of the purse, there are many other avenues for exercising power in the Senate. I would rather someone who has at least SOME conservative values be there to exercise a vote for Mississippi residents than a new member of the Senate whose values, albeit more in line with Mississippians than say Harry Reid, will not help us.

    2. Senator McDaniels, whom I have not met, is probably a nice guy and good to his family and the dog. I admire him for his tenacity and his no doubt tremendous efforts in the Senate primary and runoff. Nonetheless, I wish he would concede. He seems smart enough and tough enough to play with the big boys – but I think he has shot himself in the foot permanently with the continued efforts to fight a losing battle. I won’t say he is wrong because I don;t know if he is or not. But other politicians, successful ones, have lost and gone on to win again even if the votes counts were conducted in a less then savory manner. I am not saying Cochran did anything wrong. Some of his people might have – but then, as the saying goes, politics ain’t beanbag. It’s play for keeps and it DOES get dirty…

    Just my two cents on a Friday night…

    • How big is your want too? start a write in effort for McDaniel then get in a runoff and win the run off .That is simple .Lets do it.

    • Randy Phillips says:

      I totally agree that McDaniel should put this dog to sleep. He is potentially ruining his chance for election in the next cycle. I do, however believe that he was cheated out of the election and I will be writing him in on election day. If Childers wins because the conservative side of the Republican party stood on their principles, then so be it. America, not too long ago, stood for what was right, no matter what. What has happened to us? We choose the side of wrong in hopes of getting the upper hand on our opponents. I for one will stand on principle and let the chips fall where they may. I will write in Mickey Mouse if I have to. When Sen. Cochran wins, he will retire within a year and guess who gets to appoint his successor for the next six years. You got it. Haley Barbour’s puppet (Phil Bryant). He will just appoint someone who is another puppet to him. When will Mississippians wake up and vote for someone who believes in the things they believe in? Not so long as you are willing to do anything to win. Hence why I think Mr. McDaniel should give up this fight and try to make a difference where he can.I would rather see the democrat win than compromise my principles to ensure his loss. Just my two cents worth.

      • I disagree, Chris needs to fight on. What do you think is going to happen half way through Cochran term?? He is going to resign. The Current Governor is going to appoint Barbour to finish out Cochran’s term assuring Barbour a strong foot hold and it will be hard for conservatoires to dislodge him from the Senate seat.

  2. Brad you and I must be talking to two different Republican party members. The ones I am listening to say they are so sick and tired of the old Establishment moving continually to the Left and forgetting the folks who sent Thad to Congress and eventually to the Senate all these 42 years! And besides, Thad will be there only a short time before he “officially retires”(Note: Some think he’s been mentally retired for awhile now but just hasn’t cleaned out his office yet). So who are those folks voting for?….his unknown but obvious Establishment-picked replacement? Since the majority of REPUPLICANS voted for McDaniel in the Run Off surely it is obvious we will not be voting for Thad. We are waiting for someone(see Chris McDaniel)who believes in the Constitution; Capitalism, a balanced budget, and a strong military. Not really too much to expect, just regret the money-grubbing, dishonest Establishment are trying to make us the bad guys when they are the deserters of principle and honesty and integrity.

  3. Hey Trey:
    As some of you know, I do not follow the path of The Anointed One. However, you are spot on in your criticism regarding the dismissal failure of the Republicans to provide competent, classical conservative leadership during the W. years. We can only hope that the GOP has learned its lesson so that once the Republican Party regains control of both houses of Congress, if we
    can elect a person to be President who has the proven successful management skills of a Mitt Romney, then hopefully our leaders in Washington will not squander the opportunity to restore the nation on their second try. If they do get the chance to lead and squander it again, then it perhaps it will be time to party on–Tea Party style.
    Pappy

    • Hey Guys:
      In follow up, let me suggest that we all come together and give Cochran and the Establishment GOP one more legitimate chance to lead in D.C., as opposed to voting for a Democrat. Then, if we get a competent, classical conservative elected as President in 2016, and if the GOP leadership in Washington still fails to provide effective conservative leadership, perhaps
      then, it will be time to water the Tree of Liberty with the blood of Patriots–metaphorically speaking. However, with respect to all of our McGOPer
      brothers and sisters, now is just not the time to bring on the revolution.
      Pappy

      • One more chance! Are you kidding me? Maybe you’re a youngster but I gave my party one more chance…..4 chances ago! Dole, Bush, McCain, and Romney. I’m done with moderates. Period.

    • Movingoutofca says:

      I must disagree. The ” Establishment” did not win. They ” cheated”. If people do not make a stand, then NOTHING will ever change. Holding our nose voting for ” RINO’S” has done nothing to reverse the direction of this country. Integrity is all we have! Use it wisely!

      • William Smith says:

        Yes, they won – whatver this establishment -RINO conspiracy is. They got more votes, the Executive Committee certified the results, and so far the McDaniel Challenge has had no success. Nor is it likely go do so. Your choices are Childers or Cochran. Yes, use your vote wisely. Think with your head, not your anger. You can build or tear down. Those who went before you built. Yes, it is possible to tear it down, but the problem is that you won’t succeed in building anything in its place.

      • The GOP establishment won but what have they actually won? The primary….the election does not take place until November. We have time to decide who to actually vote for. I personally will never vote for a Democrat….if you think there have been changes to the Republican party think about the changes there have been in the party on the LEFT! OMG!

        At this moment, the Republicans are the only way to go! Yes, we were cheated and big money bought too many old guys in the Senate, like McConnell, McCain and their Dirty Dozen….selling their votes and our futures!

        But we have voted in many conservative State Legislators like Chris McDaniel. We are setting up for the future of the party……right now that is the only way to combat against the establishment! By the time they have a few years and get some name recognition, they will be seasoned to run in the future.

        Too many of them had really conservative views this time around but that is not enough to guarantee success! They were fooled by an inexperienced management team and people like the Clarion Ledger’s partisan politics and the scum like the Barbours who will always exist! They said things or did things that ruined their chances of becoming part of the movement to bring back America.

        Plus we need to acknowledge that the Main Stream Media has worked against us, and the schools and colleges have completely dumbed down the voting public over the years…..TOO MANY LIBERALS TEACHING IN OUR COLLEGES!

        But many things are being righted and more seniors do now use the computer. This situation with the world has not just happened recently…it has been a plan hatched by the Communists over many years!

  4. well, Catty, you missed the point of my reply entirely…

    perhaps if I was more blunt…

    While McDaniel put up a fight – he lost.

    Like it or not, the “establishment” won this round.

    I have yet to see even a hint that there are enough disputed votes to overturn the primary runoff, much less have McDaniel declared the winner.

    I have been involved in politics at the local, county, state and federal level for years. Perhaps we aren’t talking to the same people. Nonetheless, I AM talking to lots of people who will be casting votes for Thad AGAIN this November.

    The folks who sent Thad to DC will likely be sending him back again, and I wager you are someone who voted for him in the past (if you never voted for him then, I will freely admit to being wrong on this minor point). It is NOT obvious that all those who voted against Thad in the primary and/or runoff will vote against him in November. Some will, most will not.

    I have heard rumors for more than 20 years that Thad would be retiring, for various reasons, I have yet to see ANY notice or announcement that he intends to retire before his term is completed. Please show me where you have found this information.

    I have no doubt Senator McDaniel has integrity; but, he is shooting himself in the foot to continue this fight. It will be the death of any effort of his in a future statewide race.

    The priorities that you state that McDaniels espouses are not unique to his personal resume. I know for a fact that Thad has supported each and every one of the same.

    Majorities matter. Being in charge matters. A GOP majority may not be everything you want; but it is certainly better than a continued Democrat majority.

    Politics is bloody, dangerous and not for the faint of heart. Don’t expect anyone to give an inch. I believe from your post you won’t – you can believe that I will not either. I would rather ALL conservatives, including myself, work together for a better Mississippi. Sadly, I am not seeing yet…

  5. I don’t think I missed your point as much as I disagree with your conclusions. I’ve been in politics for many years; well paid for my expertise. It is sad to see the GOP being pulled apart by those so unwilling to represent Conservative principles while blaming those who are fighting for those principles for refusing to bow to the strangle-hold the establishment has on MS politics. McDaniel is not just trying to prove he didn’t lose the legitimate vote of Republicans but that there was so much fraud and illegal activities we may never be able to hold another legitimate election if these wrongs are not corrected. There were clear violations of the FEC campaign laws regarding the use of funds(see Senate Republican Campaign funds)that went DIRECTLY TO DEMOCRATIC OPERATIVES AND NOT THORUGH THE CAMPAIGN. To say there isn’t proof is to deny the race-baiting to create illegal double voting in the Run Off. We are not talking about hanging chads here; we are talking about illegal(as in against current state laws) in voting TWICE in a primary: illegal activity within the election process itself in some precincts. To accuse McDaniel of being wrong for not accepting illegal and dishonest activity in the Run Off is beyond the pale. And politically speaking obviously the Democratic Party held a fund-raiser for Thad in D. C.simply because they felt he would be easier to beat in November than McDaniel! Democratic operatives(paid by the above Senate GOP Committee) recorded vile, dishonest political ads to encourage less-informed voters to vote twice which means all our votes were nullified by every vote that was illegal. Thad will not be chairman of Appropriations if he returns and the street whispered before the first primary that he “won’t be there long” so as to placate those who have been waiting for him to retire for the last three years. Sadly the Establishment did more harm to Thad by conducting the nasty, illegal tactics of their campaign which has greatly tarnished his reputation By the way, this was the only time Thad did not manage his own campaign and he must surely regret what happened. But I know they don’t care….Barbour decided long ago he wants control and by golly he is going to do whatever it takes to get control. Barbour was miffed when McDaniel went against him with the eminent domain bill and he is determined to get his pound of flesh for getting off the leash. What is so sad is how the Establishment has convinced people to see it all Haley and Henry’s way. To expose how many people are hanging on the government teat because of Barbour and his minions who would be out of luck if McDaniel won should make all this obvious as to what this whole race has been about. McDaniel did not lose— the election was stolen. Not my opinion but the obvious facts. And as far as McDaniel shooting himself in the foot….when his attempts to author legitimate legislation can’t get beyond Tate Reeves to the floor of the legislature, politically speaking, we are all losing under these conditions anyway and the only recourse to benefit our state is to expose these political tactics and defeat the culprits at the ballot box. This isn’t just Chis McDaniel’s fight for a legal recourse it is much greater and far more meaningful.
    See what happens in November!

    • Wow Catty ….a powerful statement and one I agree with wholeheartedly. I am not from MS but have followed Chris McDaniels campaign for several years now. I was disturbed by the RNC and how high up the corruption chain goes. Reince Priebus needs to be removed from office for collusion and corruption!

      The only things that keep me aligned with the Republican Party is the hope that more people like Ted Cruz, Louie Gohmert, Jeff Sessions, Mike Lee, Trey Gowdy and so many of the true conservatives hold it together for awhile longer! We should not ignore the fact that man good conservatives are being voted into the State legislatures!

      I am also a strong believer in the Article V Convention of States! I think much of the power that belongs to the people has been usurped by the Feds and we need to return to the basic principles set up by our Founding Fathers to get back a lot of the Power from the Federal Government! We need to turn more power to the states to make their own decisions. Read Mark Levin’s “The Liberty Amendments: Restoring the American Republic” ….I think you can find Chapter 1 for free on the internet! or go to the Article V Convention of States site and the Citizens for Self Governance! Look at Cato Institute!

      We have strayed too far from the Bill of Rights and ignored the fact that the government was getting too big and too corrupt! The Liberals have dumbed down our Children and especially our college grads! The media has been controlled by the left for a long time as well!

      I think there has really not been a conservative President since Reagan and the rest were Rino’s or downright Progressives! We need to change that and we need to change some things in the constitution that are allowing the present government the technicalities to get around our excellent Constitution! Don’t forget that it was written 200 plus years ago….we need to make some subtle changes to eliminate all of the loopholes that now exist! Read the Liberty Amendments!

  6. William Smith says:

    I don’t agree that there is just a tree with two branches, Democrat and Republican. But, let’s suppose for the sake of arguement that is one tree. Here’s the problem. The tree is not going to be cut down. What McDaniel supporters may accomplish (though I would b they won’t) is to cut down the Republican branch. What will be left is the Democrat branch. That’s the most the McDaniel followers can accomplish – destruction There is not going to be a new pure McDaniel Party. Meanwhile, while Republicans in MS have their fight, and McDaniel supporters work to destroy what others have built, the rest of the country will go on. It’s absolutely crazy, but once people decide that their cause is righteous and that they are ready to walk off the cliff, they are willing to try to pull eveyone else off the cliff with them.

    • Randy Phillips says:

      Please give me some details on what they have built. I for one, don’t see anything good they have built.

      • William Smith says:

        They built the MS Republican Party. Republicans hold every state office except Attorney General and control both houses of the Legislature. That’s a pretty big buidling they have built and not without a lot of work and sacrifice.

  7. Voting for the lesser of two evils has worked so frigging well in the past! Wake yourselves up. Republicans and democrats are only out to line their own pockets while stealing everything that is left in yours. If you don’t run all these traitors out of office we will have no republic left.

    • William Smith says:

      Well, yes it has worked because that is the way politics works. There was a story about a little boy named Ambi. On his brithday he was asked what he wanted. He said he wanted to be a fish. His sister put him in his wagon and pulled him all over town. Would he like to have a balloon? No. How about an ice cream cone? No. Notihing except being a fish would work. His sister said, “But you’re a boy. You can’t be a fish.” “No matter,” said Ambi,”I want to be a fish.” “Ok,” said the man in the store where he had been offered an ice cream cone. So he picked him up by the seat of the pants, took him out back where a river flowed. and made like he was going to pitch him into the river. Only then did Ambi realize he couldn’t be a fish – that he had to be a boy.And yes, he’d take the balloon and ice cream. McDaniel supporters are told, “You can have Childers or you can have Cochram.” They reply, “But we want to have McDaniel.” Sorry, you can’t. You can’t be a fish. You need to be a big boy now and accept the reality of the choices. Nixon or Kennedy? Ford or Carter? Bush or Clinton? Bush or Gore? Romney or Obama? Don’t like the choices? Well, those are still the choices.

  8. How obtuse must you all be? At some point in time, even I will get relief from a good watch dog that bites me every time I go to feed him!

    There are over 180,000 people in Mississippi who voted for the so called “Tea Party Guy” , labeled as such by the Establishment Republicans to “poison the well”! It obviously didn’t work and gave them great pause.

    IMHO, it plays into the hand of progressives in both parties to allow a break-up of the 180,000 strong block of voters and send them to the polls for either candidate in November or have them sit home grinding their teeth.

    I would have all 180,000 go to the polls and cast a “write-in” vote to signal a “reckoning” to come for the State elections. Sure, they will all be thrown into a “big pile” of invalid votes, but I assure all of you, the pile will be too big to go unnoticed by the Republican Establishment.

    • William Smith says:

      It is a very big assumption that 180,000 are going to throw away their votes. Many of them are tired of all this, ready to move on, and grown up enough to choose a Republican over a Democrat. Not all, But many. They are not willing to put the house down on their own heads to get back at the Party.

      • At this point….I don’t think you have a choice but to vote for the Party to make the necessary changes to go onto the future! We do need to get the RINO’s out but only if a viable candidate can be voted in to replace them. Don’t bite your nose off to spite your face at this point! We need the senate and we need Harry Reid out!

    • Randy Phillips says:

      Amen!!!

      • Following the results of the June 24th run-offs, Eric Erickson acknowledged that he and the other radicals who have infiltrated the Tea Party Patriots are the “real RINOs”.

  9. If the Tea Partiers don’t like establishment republicans they need to leave the party and start their own. They are not republicans. They are giving conservatives a bad name. I am tired of their neo Nazi ideas. They are the American Nazi Party.

    • William Smith says:

      I am according to the people who run this site, a RINO Establishment Republican though I am by any rational definition a tradititonal Reagan Republican. All this RINO-Establishment stuff is silly. Most of them are going to have to grow up and quite being angry before they can do any good. But to call the TPiers neo-Nazis is stupid in the extreme, offensive to conservatives and Republicans of any sort. Oh, yes, and it is beyond silly.

    • What neo- Nazis are you speaking of……. the Constitution? The Bill of Rights which forms the basis of our country? Enlighten us what you are speaking of Horace? I am Tea Party and none of my values are even close to Neo-Nazi…..The only Nazis I see are those who are on the LEFT!
      The Rinos are those who claim to be conservatives but are selling their votes to the Chamber of Commerce and the Lobbyists! They don’t care about their constituents, who pay their salary and have made them millionaires for too many years! Our fault, we keep voting them back in because they come back every so many years, tell us about their conservativism and then go back and take money to change their votes….They are real William Smith and they are pushing for legalizing 11 million immigrants! The only people stopping that push are the Tea Party faction of the Congress….get a clue!

      • William Smith says:

        I have a clue, and I think some of your understanding history (eg Reagan) is off base. I know you think you are among the true conservatives and the rest us conservative Republicans are not. I disagee. But we do agree on the need for Republicans not to bite their noses to spite their faces. We need a Republican Senate now, and that trumps the rest.

      • Hey Toni:
        You keep using the term “RINO”to describe mainstream Republicans. However, immediately following the June 24th run-off, Eric Erickson of Redstate acknowledged in his blog that he and those who support a return to Traditional Mississippi Values are the True RINOs within the GOP. In making this comment, he was admitting to the fact that no
        political candidates who ran for statewide office was able to make it to
        the general election this year since their views are to the extreme right of the voting public. Like it or not, generally speaking, American voters
        historically support candidates who are to the center-right on the political spectrum. I don’t know who first tagged the term “RINO”. Regardless, I do agree with Eric Erickson. Therefore, if an individual affiliated with the GOP believes that: 1) government should control
        healthcare–whether it be rationed like Obamacare or whether it be in denying a woman’s constitutional right to choose to have an abortion; 2) government should deny equal rights and protection under the law to an individual because of one’s LGBT status; 3) a fertilized egg or fetus
        should have the same legal standing as an autonomous human being in the form of “personhood”; 4) America should be the policeman to the
        world, regardless as to whether our vital national interests are being affected our threatened; and 5) there should be a return to Traditional Mississippi Values of our fathers and grandfathers, then yes, you may be a RINO as Mr. Erickson lamented so poignantly. As The Anointed One likes to remind us, the foundation of conservatism in the form of good
        constitutional republican government is the pursuit, of liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness. For the Classical Conservative who follows the plan laid out by the Founding Fathers, that was perfected with the
        passage of the Fourteenth Amendment which contains the Equal Protection Clause, that means making these rights available to all living, breathing, autonomous Americans, regardless of race, color, creed, religion, national origin, gender, LGBT status, age, or ethnicity.
        Pappy

      • Following the results of the June 24th run-offs, Eric Erickson acknowledged that he and the other radicals who have infiltrated the Tea Party Patriots are the “real RINOs”.

    • Hey Horace:
      I am not a McGOPer, or a registered Tea Party Patriot. However, labeling these good folks as The American Nazi Party is way over the line. They are simply the true RINOs of the Republican Party as described by Eric Erickson in his blog on June 24th. Therefore, I respectfully suggest that you extend to them a sincere and heartfelt apology.
      Pappy

  10. Corruption is plaguing our state and the only way to take care of it is in November.

    • Also i do believe you can Write in Your Candidate if that person isn’t on the ballot.

    • William Smith says:

      All this talk of corruption just assertion. It is easy to through around accusations, It has been done without stop by the McDaniel campaign since the runoff. But repetition does not make for proof. So far, no one has brought forth the kind of evidence that would meet the burden of proof in a court. That is the standard by which such charges have to be established. If by “corruption that “is plaguing our state” one is referring to the allegations of voting irregularities, so far there is no evidence that meets the standard.

      • Neal McLain says:

        You make the statement that “no one has brought forth the kind of evidence that would meet the burden of proof in a court.” Your statement is false however. One of the main issues is that a court has yet to hear the full argument from the McDaniel team. The investigations and legal proceedings have been detoured and stonewalled many times and in many directions. If his argument is heard and denied then I assure you he will concede. So far state officials have just tried to muffle his argument. Does that not seem the least bit odd to you?

    • Hey Willie:
      I keep reading where the McGOPers complain about the widespread “corruption that is plaguing our state”. I’m afraid that ya’ll must know something that I have missed. Therefore, other than The Anointed One’s ongoing election dispute, I would appreciate it very much if you or anyone else would explain or describe to me any instances of widespread corruption that are plaguing MS? As citizens who are engaged in the political process, it would be good if we are all referring to the same set of facts. To be sure, if it is taking place, then it should be exposed, and if necessary, prosecuted in the criminal justice system. Thanks.
      Pappy

      • William Smith says:

        My statement is not false. No proof has been brougtht forth in either the big binder or in the legal filing that is likely to meet the legal tests.That said, if he wanted it heard, he should have filed in a timely manner. I doubt the case will be heard except in press releases from the McD campaign – nor in my opinion should it be. This whole thing has become very wearying to all except that hardcore McD supporters. And Mr. Tyner who is making a lot of money.

  11. William Smith says:

    The mainstream of the Republican Party is pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage? I don’t think so.

    • Absolutely! Anyone who claims to love freedom, and equal opportunity/protection of the laws for all persons, must support those policies which limit the State’s unreasonable and unnecessary interference with a person’s right to pursue life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness. To do otherwise is not Conservatism, but rather just a form of Theocratic
      Progressivism. A woman has a constitutional right to choose to have an abortion pursuant to the First, Fourth, Fourteenth, and perhaps the Ninth Amendments. Part of that right is that women have the right of reasonable access to safe and appropriate medical care. This is the case regardless as to how sincere and committed Governor Bryant may be in his personal desire to eliminate a woman’s right of access to have a legal abortion in MS.
      Therefore, I say again, these are liberty issues/rights that Classical
      Conservatives must support. Otherwise, our message of liberty, freedom, and smaller government are just empty words, devoid of meaning.
      Pappy

      • William Smith says:

        Well, they have never been any part of historic cconservatims so the “classical” doesn’t work. The right to abortion you discover in the amendments was never there till Justice Blackmun discovered it. Theocratic progressivism? Who are these theocrats who have a progressive agenda? That’s something invented out of whole cloth. There is no “must” about conservatives supporting deprviing one person of life to satisfy the desires of an “autnomous person” whatever that is. Nor is there any obligation of a society to destroy itself by adoptiing a novel definistion of marriage that has no antecedent in human history.

      • William Smith says:

        If I thought for a moment Thad thought what you think, I’d have no choice but to be a McDaniel man.

      • So the baby has no rights huh? Not much of a right to life there is it?

    • MCD asks: “So the baby has no rights huh? Not much of a right to life there is it?” He is correct in principle, but incorrect in terminology. Legally and therefore technically speaking, “a fertilized egg or a fetus” is not a “baby”. I know, you’re thinking,”What!?! I felt my child kicking inside me when I was 15 weeks pregnant.” I’m sure that is very true. However, your “baby” was dependent upon you or your wife/partner’s umbilical cord and uterus for its
      continued existence. Therefore, it was not “autonomous”. Accordingly, as a matter of law, not only in MS, but throughout America, a “fetus” has never been accorded the status of “personhood”. And unless I’m mistaken, in every state where proponents of extending personhood status to the unborn have attempted to do so, whether through the legislature or by statewide referendum as was attempted in MS, the proponents to the personhood
      measures have failed. The reason is clear. Average Americans recognize that a fetus is not a person–a “preperson” to be sure, but not an autonomous, breathing individual person. This is important for Equal Protection Clause purposes since only a “person” is accorded any rights under the Constitution.
      The Constitution does not mention explicitly, or even by implication that a fertilized egg, a fetus, the pre-born, or whatever we wish to call the little pre-life that grows and develops inside the womb of a woman.
      Pappy

      • William Smith says:

        Autonomous means self-law or a law unto oneself. That seems to be to be a term without meaning. Perhaps you mean self-directing. That is true of no one in an absolute sense. We are all constrained. But, let’s try a loser definition like “making your own deisions.” A just born, a day old, a week old, a 9 mos old does not do that. Cannot do it. Nor can many elderly people. If you mean, able to provide for oneself, the same is true. Able to breathe? Take that baby out of the uterus at 8 mos and he will breathe just as if he came throught the birth canal at 9 mos – unless kill him, unles you subject his life to the will of someone who will impose their law – which is in this case their preference, their convenience on him.

      • But all we are doing is just re-defining things. We just decided, as a society mind you, that an unborn child was simply a fetus, or a blob of goo, and that was that. Do you think the Founders wouldn’t have considered an unborn child to be a person? Remember the “millions yet unborn” they spoke of? Look at how blacks and even women were once defined. We just simply declared that the Constitution, and the laws, didn’t apply to them. Was that right? Of course not!

  12. Hey Guys: As conservatives we all should agree that we want to preserve the institutions upon which our country is based. For instance we believe in the “rule of law”, as opposed to “mob rule”, or rule by an autocrat. We believe in the right to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness, all protected by the rule of law. Without getting into a debate about constitutional interpretation approaches–textualism, originalism, and a living constitution,
    all legal scholars agree that in our secular democratic republic, the law should reflect the standards of society, so long as those standards do not subject the minority to the tyranny of the majority. Thus, even though a majority of Americans continue to support a woman’s right to choose, and among
    women, its a very high majority, and among single women its an extremely high majority, that fact is not even relevant under the Equal Protection Clause
    (EPC) of the 14th Amendment. This past week marked the 50th anniversary of the U.S.Supreme Court decisions in Row v. Wade. The Court found, and the the courts continue to find, that a woman has a fundamental right to choose to undergo an abortion. Accordingly, in order for the State to impead or deny a woman that fundamental right, the State must show a compelling state interest. To date, it is my understanding that the State has only been
    successful in denying a woman the fundamental right to choose to have an abortion has been in those circumstances involving late-term abortions. The same principle holds true for LGBT rights. During oral arguments last year in the Windsor case, the government lawyers were asked directly by the justices “what is the compelling state interest as to why the law should allow heterosexuasl to be eligible to receive certain benefits under the law, but not
    the surviving spouse/partner of a same-sex union?” In this respect, the government attorneys were speechless. They had no response, because there was no honest response that they could give. EPC applies to all persons–living, breathing, autonomous men and women (and now small closely held corporations)–but not fertilized eggs or fetuses. We may have a personal wish that all women would choose life. However, we don’t live in a perfect world.
    Accordingly, if our Republican Party has any hope of being a majority political party anywhere outside of the very Deep South, then the GOP must adapt. In politics perceptions are often more important than the facts themselves. Therefore, instead of confirming the Democrats’ misperception that we are conducting a War Against Women and LBGT folks, we need to acknowledge the reality at hand, and put the Christian Collectivist Community in the back
    of the bus. Let them squawk, but we should no longer allow them to hold our GOP hostage with their unrealistic theistic agenda. After all, ours is a secular, democratic republic. Let’s keep it that way!
    Pappy

    • William Smith says:

      There is no Christian collectivist community – at least not of any size. There are morals and these inevitably attached to something. The question s what. You appraently believe these to be grounded in the evolving views of society according to whatever majority exists to enact or repeal laws at any given time. But that is no basis at all – there is nothing that trascends that majority at any given time. Theoretically anything is possible. Life? What is it? Whose? Lberty? Some two questions? Property? Why? Whose? Pursuit of happiness? Whose concept? At what cost? A society cannot long exist without some sense of trascendent values and morality. The Delaration says that we are “endowed by their Creator” with inalienable rights. Is that theocratic? How could you have any inalienable rights without a transcendent refernce point. You can’t and every atheistic totalatarian society proves that. You know you are engaging in a slight of hand when you talk about keeping our republic the way it was. Your concept of the way it was is the way it never was till of very late. You know very well that abortion and gay marriage are no part of the way it was. The state’s compelling inerest in the first is the right of life and the second is the suvival of the society itself. Frankly, if I have to choose with whom to make common cause – your view or the McDaniel folks, I’ll make it with the McDs. I am thankful to say I do not have to make that choice.

      • Hey William:
        You say there is no “Christian Collectivist Community”. Since you deny its existence, you must know what it means. Therefore, please share with all of us what you understand the term means. As for “morals” now you’re talking philosophy, where I was discussing the law. However, to an extent morals are based upon Natural Law or Natural Rights. These are
        indeed certain inalienable rights–life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness as first suggested by John Locke. How those 4 rightss are interpreted and applied do indeed change based upon the continuing evolution of society. For example, in 1787 slavery was perfectly acceptable, and until WW II, no one questioned the supremacy of the
        Northern European white race and the “fact” that it was preordained by
        God Almighty to lead and to rule over all of the dark-skinned races in Christian harmony. Also, it was not until recently that society evolved in America that we as a nation finally came together in principle to break the back of Jim Crow and official state-sanctioned segegation. Finally, the State’s Rights folks are correct in theory that pursuant to the 10th Amendment, whatever powers the states don’t specifically delegate to
        the federal government are reserved to the states; and that even though the states are united in one common central government, that it was the intent of the Founding Fathers that the states nevertheless remain otherwise sovereign unto themselves. However, that original intent was forever altered and rendered moot by the Civil War. Thus, to say that a woman should be denied the fundamental right to choose to have an
        abortion, or that LGBT folks should be denied the same fundamental right of Equal Protection under the law as everyone else is wholly irrelevant. To be sure, there is very little about American culture, custom, or mores today that are the same as they were in 1787. But that is okay. The secret to the successful application of conservatism is to take the principles espoused by our Libertarian-minded Founding Fathers, and apply those principles in a way today that are consistent with a textual reading of the Constitution. The main principle they had in mind ess liberty–liberty and the freedom to do as one pleasesoso long as “you don’t pick my pocket.”
        Pappy

  13. Adapt YES; believing in the Constitution and defending that belief….YES: Believing and Defending Christianity…YES; promoting Capitalism and Free Enterprise…YES: understanding the difference between the Barbour Boys and true Conservatives in MS,,,YES: Understanding the wanton, deprived and slave-owner mentality of the Democratic party…YES; Believing that Chris McDaniel won the Primary Run Off…YES: voting for Cochran in November….NO, Hell No! Now, do you get it?

  14. William Smith says:

    Catty, I get what you are saying. What I don’t get with regard to your last statement is how you can be so shortsighted. I do not think you will succeed in electing Childers, but, if you do, you will not end up with a Party controlled by and cleansed by Chris McDaniel and his supporters.What you will end up with is endless internnecine warfare you almost certainly cannot win, making the Democrats competitive again in statewide races and for control of the two houses of the Legislature, and years and years of rebuilding the Repbublican Party. Not very Reagan like and in the end not conservative but radical in nature and method. Of course, you are going to do what you are going to do. But, it’s a sad thing to watch and a destructive thing to do. I get your being willing to pull the buidling down on your own head. I just wish you did not want to pull it down on the rest of our heads. Chris McDaniel is going to prove probably sooner than later that he is not a very good horse to hitch your wagon to.

  15. We’ve had such a jackass running our state, our GOP(see Haley Barbour) I hardly think you should lecture me about McDaniel. If he hadn’t stolen the Primary Run Off we wouldn’t be in this position. Again and again and again….McDaniel won the majority of Republican Votes in both primaries. Doesn’t that ever, ever get through to you Mr. Smith? That the election was fraudulent is the point. We can’t continue with the Barbours being in charge of our party when clearly they do not represent the majority within our party. We are Conservative; they are not.
    The state of MS is Conservative; they are opportunists….follow the money opportunists. One can not support(vote)for corruption no matter what party with which they are affiliated. Hence I think it is like when we used to go rat hunting as a children and we sometimes turned over bales of hay, old boards, sheets of tin to find the rats, which scampered away once we exposed them. This forthcoming election is about just that….rat killing.

  16. Our family will exercise our rights not to go to the polls and vote for Cochran. I have talked to a lot of Conservatives and they also tell me that they can’t bring themselves to vote for Cochran either. Cochran is a senile old fool that thinks he will pass the torch of the Senate over to Barbour midway through his term. This I can not condom. The republican Part has lost it’s way and we need conservatives carrying the torch!

  17. William Smith says:

    Pappy, you may note I wrote Christian collectivist community without the caps, meaning that, yes there is a fringe group with that name, but no there is no such movement within the Republican party or the body politic. Moreover, you are dealing with law as though it can be discconected from morality and morality as though it has no transcendent referrent. For you all laws are in the end positive not moral – based on current majorities rather than timeless values. We part company here.

    • Hey William:
      It is okay to disagree. However, your 6:05 a.m. reply evades the issues from my 9/14/14 10:21 p.m. posting. If are unable to provide a response that is relevant to my point, just say so, or don’t try at all. What you have done is just prove my point–the CCC expects everyone to accept its narrow world view, and to live by it without question at the expense of liberty. This is the
      type of theistic autocratic attitude that Jefferson and Madison in particular earned against.
      Pappy

      • William Smith says:

        I do believe I replied. If there are specific points that you want me to address perhaps you can inform me of therm. I believe I addressed directly the issue at hand which how we establish laws. Some laws are positive or arbitrary. For instance a rule how long one has to file a challenge. Some laws are postive but not entirely arbirtrary. For instance a speed limit. Some laws and the most important ones are moral in nature. You shall not do murder, You shall not steal. For instances. The question is ow one derives these laws. The Declaration says they are given by the Creator. That is a thiestic statement. If you follow you logic then it is theocratic. BTW, using loaded and perjortive words does not increase the force of your argument. “Narrow worldview.” Your is broad? “Theistic autocratic attitude?” You want to impose you worldview and your whatever it is attitude as much any Falwell. So with regard to the Republican Party, let’s have at it. You seek to persuade the Party to your view. It doesn’t hold your view now.

      • William Smith says:

        PS. I would note that we were discussing Cochran, McDaniel, the challenge, the courts, conservatism, the Republican Party, etc when you introduced into the thread your view of what conservatism is. I would not have engaged except for your trying to sell the idea that the Republcan Party ought to and that genuine conservatism is pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage.

  18. William Smith says:

    Catty, when you look at the whole Barbour record he was a very good Governor. He was extremely effective with Katrina and made MS look very good esp in relation to the Democat Gov of LA. . He restrained spending. Etc. I think his record is quite good. Yes, he is a poltician. He was afer all a chairman of the National Committee and a great strategist for Republican victories. Yes, he wants a bigger tent than you want for the party. Yes, he has a political apparatus. Every successful politican does. Had McD won, or if he ends up with control of the Party, he too will have an apparatus to choose candidates, turn out the vote, etc. It’s politics.To the exent Barbour is responsible for Cochran’s win, it is because he made effective (not illegal) use of his political apparatus. It comes down to his being a savvy and experienced politician. He outsmarted McD which is not surprising inasmuch as McD lacked that experience and chose to work in the MS Senate as an outsider. And, by any knd of objective standard Barbour, Bryant, Cochran, Harper, Wicker, et al are conservatives. The problem is that they do not agree with you and McD on this or that specific. So, for you, if they do not agree on every specific, they are not conservatives. They are not rats under the hay who need to be uncovered and shot. But, as I said, you have determined to pursue a destructive strategy and on one, least of all I, can dissuade you. It’s great you have the freedom to do that. I just hope for the sake of conservatism that you do not succeed.

  19. Katrina was of great benefit for Barbour and his family and friends when he initiated the “no bid contract” with the federal government….They got rich at tax payer expense. Relatives came out of the woodwork to sop at the public trough. And while we are on that subject: Barbour denied Katrina assistance through the HUD program to many who lost everything but did not qualify through the first criteria for assistance but were promised they would get help once the first wave of desperately in need folks were satisfied. BUT NO…Barbour diverted all those monies instead to the Port of Gulfport…nearly half a billion if memory serves me well….money which we have YET TO SEE AGAIN. He pardoned 200 criminals, two of which went on to kill other people. He is chief lobbyist for Southern Company, the holding company of Miss Power, which after building an extremely expensive power plant is now trying to saddle the cost overruns on the backs of MS Power Customers!!!! He could not get elected dog catcher today. He ruined Thad’s reputation; humiliated MS with his campaign tactics to scare the Blacks about McDaniel; violated FEC regulations by not running contributions through the campaign fund, etc. etc. He is a egomaniac…….seeking power and destroying Democracy in the process. Every illegal vote cast nullifies every legal voter’s rights. Don’t you get it?

  20. William Smith says:

    I get these things: 1.You make a lot of allegaions which are not the same as facts. Several of the allegations you make would, if true, involve criminal conduct. Yet, not only are there no inidictments, there are no investigations. 2. You have a grid through which you view Haley Barbour. You hate Haley Barbour. In my view you are not able to view him rationally. 3. You have a great deal of anger. 4. You are going to pursue a destructive course. 5. You keep saying, “Don’t you get it?” because these things are so clear and obvious to you that you can’t understand why everyone deos not see what you see and feel how you feel.. But they don’t, and it’s this most of all that you don’t get.

  21. we are Legion

  22. William Smith says:

    You mean like the demons who gave that as their name and who asked permission to enter a herd of pigs and promptly drove the pigs off the cliff into the Sea of Galilee where the pigs drowned? That is surely apropos.

  23. Truth is the first defense against libel. What I have said has been published and is the truth. You sound like either a retired military or civil servant. Either way fear not, I am a professional and would never declare a fact I could not defend as truth. But hearing the truth only causes people like you to condemn the messenger…. I only hope the State Supreme Court is not affected by the long arm of the Barbours and it will allow this case of a corrupted primary to be heard in court.

    • William Smith says:

      I am neither. Bad guesses. Iam not sure what being a professional has to do with not declaring a fact you could not defend. Professionals do that all the time. But why would you need to call attention to your being a professional? What does that have to do with anything? I don’t condemn you for being the messenger. What I know is you are making allegations and allegations are not facts. I am waiting for some word of an investigation into these things you believe to be facts. If you know them surely there must be others, and, as you say, you would not say something you cannot prove. Re the Court, I do not know if you have looked at the McD facebook pages, but it is clear he is trying to put pressure on the Court. I don’t think the Court is going to be influence by either side, but, if it goes against McD, I expect him and his supporters to cry foul again. There would just have to be some reason beside not having a good case.

    • William Smith says:

      Here is Senator McDaniel not trying to pressure the Court:

      “Activist judges have been a problem in Mississippi since the 1950s, as we saw with the Kellum decision.

      It is quite important to note that Kellum decision was an act of judicial activism. In that case, contrary to statute, the judge imposed the 20 day deadline only intended for county elections onto Congressional and statewide elections.

      Were the State Supreme Court to uphold the recent ruling to dismiss based on Kellum — which was based on laws repealed in 1970 — they would affirm such judicial activism.

      That type of judicial activism is abhorrent to conservative Mississippians, and its practice opens the door for judicial activism on any number of other issues brought before the court.”

    • So, what will happen if/when the Supreme Court upholds Judge McGehee’s decision to dismiss the appeal from the Executive Committee’s decision as being untimely? Will you and the other McGOPers accept their decision as being legitimate under the rule of law even if The Anointed One refuses? Will Chris continue his Faith and Justice Tour, and eventually take it on the road out of state? Will Sarah Palin and Melanie Sojourner remain bff? Will Michael Watson become a test grader for Common Core?

  24. Hey William:
    9/14/14 at 8:43 a.m. I replied to Toni’s posting. In an effort to make my point, I shared a few examples. Then, at 12:58 p.m. being the wyly rascal that you are, you egged me on. And the rest as they say–is history. Therefore, just remember everything that I have shared is based upon the concept of liberty. As conservatives we must ask ourselves, “how can we honestly condemn
    Obamacare and the federal government’s hijacking of the individual’s fundamental right to freedom of choice to access health care, while at the same time, we keep accommodating those within the GOP who persist in imposing their narrow world views on everyone else?” Today, its attempting to limit a woman’s fundamental right to have reasonable access to safe abortion services and limiting our denying outright Equal Protection under the Law to LGBT folks. In years gone by, it was maintaining the purity of the white race through segregation of the races, or a woman’s place is in the home, or people who suffer from mental illness are demon possessed. The issues may evolve over time, but the presence of well-intentioned Christians is always the same. The attempt to impose their narrow world views on everyone else. Perhaps, that is why Jefferson and Madison continually warned against the undue influence of priests and the Church.
    Pappy

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